Spotlight: Hood to Coast

Episode transcript

Panos  2:28  
Felicia, welcome to the podcast!

Felicia  2:37  
Thank you so much for being able to join you today.

Panos  2:40  
Well, thanks a lot for taking the time, particularly 23 days out from Hood to Coast. This episode actually will probably go out after Hood to Coast. But this is a pretty stressful time for you, for sure.

Felicia  2:51  
Yes, yes, it is, but to be anticipated. We're going on 41 years of the events and 18 years for myself. So we have some things down. But yes, there are variables.

Panos  3:04  
Exactly. I mean, you could be doing this for 50 years and there's always like a curveball every single time. But as we'll see, you're one of those events that you've taken meticulous notes, so year on year must be super straightforward to go on.

Felicia  3:19  
Yes, to a degree. We are always making variations to the event, for sure. But yeah, we definitely have systems in place. And I feel like organisation is the name of the game. Obviously, for most race directors, that's the case as well. But with 197 miles along the entire race course, there's an infinite number of variables that we're often dealing with, with people and property owners and permits. So yes. 

Panos  3:47  
Yeah. I think you're being very modest in just mentioning the distance there, as we'll see in a second when we go into the format of Hood to Coast. It is mind-bogglingly-- it's just stupidly complicated, let's put it that way. So we'll get into that in a sec. Now, where are you based? I mean, I'm guessing you're based around Portland somewhere, but you and the team, physically-- are you in the City of Portland? Are you around Portland? Where is sort of, like, headquarters for you?

Felicia  4:16  
Yeah, we are in Portland, Oregon, so kind of the epicentre of a lot of the running culture in Oregon. I feel like it's Eugene and Portland. We've got Nike right in our neighbourhood as well. So, yeah, we have running trails just about half a mile from us. So it's a beautiful area. We've got green trees and sunshine today.

Panos  4:36  
To be fair, you have a lot more than just a running scene. I mean, last time I went there, great foodie scene, a very charming place to live. Are things still sort of as charming as I remember them?

Felicia  4:48  
Yeah, Portland's been in a lot of headlines, of course, recently with things that they've been dealing with cleaning up the city and, of course, depending on your politics, everyone has a point of view on that. But Portland really does, as you mentioned, have so much character, so much personality. It's really fun to be able to showcase the beautiful, unique elements of the City of Portland for participants that are coming from outside the area, as well as people who are maybe from the Portland area, but don't make it into the city as much.

Panos  5:22  
And you're born and raised Portlander?

Felicia  5:25  
I actually am. Yeah, I feel like there's not a whole lot of us. But yeah, I was born and raised in Portland and moved to Montana for a while, and that's where I met my husband. And then I pulled him back out to Portland after we graduated from university.

Panos  5:43  
Awesome. So you are the race director of Hood to Coast, which you've been since-- remind me again. Is it 2009?

Felicia  5:52  
So I started in 2006 and, yeah, officially became race director in 2009. 

Panos  5:58  
Okay, awesome. 

Felicia  5:58  
So yeah, going on about 17 years. Time flies.

Panos  6:04  
Well, and of course, as we'll see, you've been sort of indirectly involved with the race for much longer than that. Actually, let's go into that. Do you want to give us a brief history of this very monumental race?

Felicia  6:18  
Sure. So my father started Hood to Coast way back in 1982, which was the same year that I was born. So it's easy to remember how old I am every year. But he was the president of Oregon Road Runners Club at the time, and he was an ultra-marathon runner as well. So he had a group of a lot of running friends in the community and he had done a small one-day relay that was down in Coos Bay at the time, and it was a relay that was about every two miles, you were rotating with exchange points. He and his friends had never done anything like that before and they had such a great time. They were thinking, "Okay, how do I combine this into something where I get to do this again with all of my running friends, but I'm combining two of my favourite holiday destinations, which were the beach at the Pacific Ocean, which was nearby only 60 miles away from Portland, and then Mount Hood where my dad loved to go skiing every winter?" So he was like, "Why not combine my two favourite destinations into one amazing weekend of running?" So he just decided to kind of haphazardly create this fun experience for he and his friends. And that first year, there were just six teams and it was very - how do I say - just off the cuff. They really would blow through exchanges which maybe happened to be in the middle of an intersection. But for my dad who was very analytical, it was like, "Well, this is exactly 5.0 miles. This is where we're gonna put the exchange," and they would just roll right through. There were no permits. There were no portable toilets. Nothing organised. They were literally just flying through on the road. They started near the top of Mount Hood, and continued down through to Pacific City. So the first few years, it was literally just word of mouth. So my dad did not anticipate making this into an actual business. He was a full-time architect at the time and owned an architecture business. It just kind of took on a life of its own. He wanted to continue on running as well but, in that second year, it just ballooned from six teams up to I believe it was 64 teams. A few weeks before, he was going to run in this second race, he was just inundated with people wanting to run, so he realised, "I'm not going to be able to run this year. I'm gonna have to just organise this." So he and my mom really kind of just took that on and it blossomed, again, just word of mouth from that point on. So in the third year, it reached about 120 teams. The fourth year, it was up to 250. And then, in the fifth year, it got up to 500. And then, it just really exploded in popularity from that point on. Literally, just word of mouth that the events took on, as I said, a life of its own and continued to expand until we started reaching a cap-- having to cap it at 1000 teams and those were just Hood to Coast. The Portland Coast Walk had not started yet as well. So yeah, it was just something where it's a pure labour of love that the community and the participants really kind of created themselves. 

Panos  9:56  
Yeah. I mean, I love these stories. There's a couple in mass participation events of these kinds of events that sprang out of almost, like, a wager at a pub or something. Like, two, three crazy folks, I think Otillo, which is a great race in Sweden as well, where they sort of do island hopping. It sort of started like that by a bunch of folks, like, "Oh, yeah, well, why don't we do that?" And they just go and take a life of its own, as you say. Now, I often see this being told of Hood to Coast. People refer to it as the mother of all relays. You said it's up to 1000 teams - that's a 12-person team. So that's a lot of people running there. I mean, there are two spins, I guess, to the mother of all relays. One is being the first or the earliest, and the other one is being the largest. Hood to Coast is definitely the latter. Was it one of the first sort of, like, relays in terms of the format as a race? Or were there other events before that that may have even inspired your father?

Felicia  11:02  
As far as we know, Hood to Coast was the first long-distance running relay. So as I mentioned, my dad participated in this small short one-day relay that was done in Coos Bay, where they were only running about two miles, but that was just a one-day relay. There was nothing that was combined, basically, to date, overnight, long-distance running relay. So that was really kind of a new foray that no one had experienced before, and it was just kind of coinciding with the early 80s running boom. So it really, I think, inspired people, and they found this unique, different, interesting, and something that was not like your typical marathon or 10K race that people were already participating in. This was something that they could do together as a running community and experience something, come together, and really, as I mentioned, just really took on a life of its own from that point on.

Panos  12:03  
And as you mentioned, the race has been selling out for over 30 years, in fact, according to Wikipedia. 12,000 runners. I have to ask when I see, sort of, races selling out or capping participation and stuff, is there room to grow and you've sort of held back? Or is there some physical constraint that stops you from expanding the race even further?

Felicia  12:27  
Yeah, we could potentially expand the race larger, but we'd need to get approval, of course, through the counties and the permits. We did do that one year for the 30th anniversary of Hood to Coast, we expanded to 1250 teams for Hood to Coast, and we wanted to explore and see, "Could we make this into something larger?" The answer, unfortunately, was yes, we could, but the quality of the event would suffer, and we did not feel that that was in the best interests of the participants or ourselves to-- yes, we could create this larger event, but the traffic would be inundated much more so and it became too large. So we went into some smaller Coast Range mountain rural communities, and the capacity for parking and vehicles just really, really stretched us to the limit. So we realised, "You know what? It's just not worth it. Let's keep the capacity at 1,000 teams for Hood to Coast. And then we keep the capacity for the Portland to Coast walk at 400 teams." So, we put people on a waitlist. If there are a few extenuating circumstances where a Hood to Coast team cannot participate, we bring up somebody else from the waitlist. So we have a pretty large waitlist that happens every year, as I mentioned. We sell out on opening day registration and have for the last 30 years straight. So I think, also, a huge draw of Hood to Coast is the fact that it is so exclusive. People want to participate, but your chances of getting in, there's a one in three - sometimes, one in four - chance.

Panos  14:17  
Wow. And the course-- has that remained fairly constant for the past however long?

Felicia  14:24  
Yeah, it stayed somewhat similar since about 1989 when we moved the finish to Seaside Oregon, which is a larger coastal community that could handle a bigger capacity of runners and walkers. It does fluctuate a bit from year to year based on the property owners and we have 35 different exchange points. So depending on maybe major construction issues along the roadways or a property owner that just doesn't want to participate anymore, we might vary the course slightly. There's been a few years where-- gosh, I want to say what probably 10-12 years ago where we had to change about six different exchange points along the racecourse, so that did vary. That was an extra burden, extra load, I guess, for all of us in the staff. But usually each year, maybe one exchange changes. Otherwise, we try to keep the route very similar.

Panos  15:21  
And as we'll see later, actually, Hood to Coast has recently expanded overseas. We're going to see that you guys are doing races in China and Israel and other places, and we're going to touch on that a little later in the podcast. And the common thing in all these expansions is the whole running from a mountain peak down to sea level kind of thing. How much of the appeal of Hood to Coast, you think, is in that? Is there something special to the people running it or something like, "I'm going to go from the top of a mountain down to sea level to the beach"?

Felicia  15:59  
Yeah, I think there's definitely something extremely iconic and so visually expressive about-- when you are driving up to Mount Hood, I mean, you all of a sudden have this amazing viewpoint of this monumental peak that is 11,200 feet high with snow-capped Glacier mountains that are there year round and these amazing beautiful national forests all surrounding you as well, and it's so impactful, and you get up to the start line there at the top of Mount Hood, next to these snowy glaciers, basically, and you're taking off just super, super steep downhill for the first five miles. I think you descend about 2000 feet in five miles. And it's like taking off like a rocket ship, like, in that first leg and you literally just are downhill for the first six legs from that point on. And it's so, as I said, just so epically beautiful. The natural environment, obviously, of the Pacific Northwest is so beautiful, and I feel like Hood to Coast does a good job of showcasing some amazing different parts of the Northwest in that way, coming down through, as I said, those national forests from Mount Hood, then you get down into some really beautiful rural farmlands with cherry trees and agriculture. And then you make it down into the city of Portland. So you have this really cool different urban environment. You're running over the Tilikum Bridge in downtown Portland and seeing the beautiful cityscape along the river. And then, you're continuing on into more rural communities and then going up over the Coast Range mountains - so another set of coasts or mountain ranges - to then finally descend into the beach and have this huge, huge beach party physically on the sand next to the Pacific Ocean. And it's one of the largest beach parties on the West Coast. The way it culminates is such a celebration and people really look forward to experiencing that finished party. I think that's really a huge draw as well. And it's that carrot at the end to feel like, "I can push through, I can make it because there's going to be this amazing celebration at the finish. And I'm going to be able to celebrate with my friends." And it's pretty incredible where people are staying up for sometimes 36 hours - it varies. The first teams finish in about 16 or 17 hours and continue through about 36 hours. They're running on fumes. A lot of people might be able to sleep two to three hours over the course of this entire event, but they somehow muster the energy when they finish that Saturday to stay up again till 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock at night, and be dancing because we have live music throughout the whole day and evening. So it's really a cool, amazing experience to see how much fun people have, and it's very inspiring.

Panos  19:19  
Yeah. I didn't watch the full movie. There's, like, a documentary about Hood to Coast, and you can definitely sense that it is a super, super fun event. I mean, I can tell when a race is awesome. And you can definitely tell that Hood to Coast has all the elements of being a super amazing experience. Now, you mentioned the 36 hours. Let's dive into the actual format and break it down for people. And this is where I think just a hint of the complexity of putting on an event like this begins to emerge because, your local 10K or your closest Metro marathoner or whatever, you put on your shoes, you show up at the start line, you run. Here, you have vans, you have legs, you have handovers, you have exchanges, you have like-- not to go into the armies of volunteers on which we're going to have a very lengthy discussion later, but just walk us through how the relay works, particularly for people who are completely ignorant of how relays work in the context of a mass participation event.

Felicia  20:28  
So in a relay environment, and particularly for Hood to Coast, obviously, we have teams of 8 to 12 people on a team - runners or walkers - and these teams have two vehicles. So it's broken up. You have six runners or six walkers in each vehicle, and there are 35 exchange points with Hood to Coast. Obviously, it'll vary depending on the relay and how long it is. 197 miles. So each runner will run anywhere in distance from three to seven and a half miles. On average, it's about five and they rotate. Each runner stays in sequence running their leg - what we consider a leg - of approximately five miles, and then they hand off a baton or what we do is a wrist wrap to the next runner in rotation. And they continue on in the same sequence for legs 1 through 12, for runners 1 through 12, and they continue in that sequence for three legs, which is what it is for Hood to Coast, again, depending on the event - might be two legs or might be four. If a team has, say, 8 runners, they're going to run four legs instead. So, the average total distance could be about 20 miles. So it really does vary depending on how difficult you want to make that experience. We typically do not allow fewer than eight members on a team just because that's really considered an ultra distance unless they show us specific qualifications of how they can do this. So with the relay, again, as I mentioned, there are 35 exchange points and it spans anywhere from 17 hours up to 36 hours total in distance, and it continues overnight. So the first start waves with Hood to Coast start at 2.30 in the morning, and the last runners will be finishing the following day at 8 pm. So it encompasses quite a large timespan as well.

Panos  22:45  
Okay, so just to summarise, let me put it into kilometres, which is how I understand these things best. So it's around 320 kilometres - is it somewhere there? Okay. 

Felicia  22:56  
Yep. 

Panos  22:56  
So 320 kilometres, which is, like, 200 miles, right? Something like that. 

Felicia  23:01  
Yeah. 

Panos  23:02  
Then you have 36 legs with 35 exchange points. You basically take teams of 8 or 12. You put their names in a row and, basically, they go one by one through every leg and they rotate. Depending on whether it's eight or 12, they end up doing either three legs per person or four legs per person. Right? And there's a 36-hour cutoff. 

Felicia  23:26  
Yes, exactly. 

Panos  23:28  
Okay. 320 kilometres in 36 hours. I mean, it's downhill. It's a team of 12. But then, I guess you rotate, you'll be up 36 hours. It doesn't sound like a walk in the park. Right? I mean, it still sounds like it's pushing people, right? They can't just walk this thing.

Felicia  23:51  
Exactly. Yeah, it's definitely a strain, I would say. So I participated in the event about six times before actually running-- sorry, starting to work in the event. I got to participate in it with my dad and another time with friends, so a few different variations. And as a runner, I run five days a week, I was still very sore after all of that. It's basically the equivalent of running a half marathon or a little more. Another kind of variable is the lack of sleep because that really kind of can throw people into some other challenging aspects besides actually just running. But we do have a very diverse group of runners and walkers of all different abilities and walks of life. We have people that are maybe weekend joggers as well as elite Olympic athletes. So it really, really varies. People that are just trying to get in shape maybe got inspired to lose weight or fundraising for cancer research for a family member, things like that - people who maybe would not consider themselves runners, taking this on, really challenging themselves, persevering, and really making it through. I mean, people really surprise themselves when they have a reason and a drive. They can push through and do things that you might look at outside and think, "Oh, there's no way that they can do this." But they do. And they accomplish this. And sometimes people say, "This changed my life and it changed the trajectory of my life, I became so much healthier after this experience," and it's very inspiring to see.

Panos  25:52  
Yeah, I think that's the great beauty of the industry we're in. I mean, races do that to people, which is great. Do people tend to sleep between legs? Or? Or do they stay up for the full 36 hours?

Felicia  26:04  
So we have three different sleeping fields along the race course. So people do try to get some sleep. Typically, that varies anywhere from about an hour and a half to three hours, depending on how fast you can fall asleep, and their designated sleeping fields. So you can put out your sleeping bag. We also have one exchange that is the Alaska Air camp out. So we have tents set up for participants on a first come first serve basis. They can go crash and get some shut-eye real quick for a few hours in there. But typically, yeah, it's in that hour-and-a-half to three-hour range for the overnight portion.

Panos  26:44  
And of course, I guess they can sleep in the van. Right? I mean, there's no rule against that?

Felicia  26:49  
Exactly. Yep. Yep. So totally open to sleeping fields or their vehicles. That's a possibility as well.

Panos  26:56  
So what is the thinking between the two vans? Is there a purpose to that in having two vans specifically, even if a team, say, could fit in one van or three vans or whatever? Like, what's the thinking behind some of these rules?

Felicia  27:12  
Yes, over the vans, it is based on size. That is more easily manoeuvrable for parking versus having a larger, longer van or vehicle that would be harder to turn, especially where we have some smaller properties - the Coast range mountains. A smaller vehicle that holds six to eight people is more optimal in these kinds of scenarios. So that's why we have the split.

Panos  27:40  
And in terms of international runners, I mean, for a race of this reputation and standing in its field, do you get many teams flying in from overseas and competing in Hood to Coast?

Felicia  27:54  
Yeah, we do. Each year, it varies a bit. But for example, this year, we have teams from 43 different countries and all 50 states. They vary anywhere from-- we've had, honestly, teams of military people from Afghanistan. We've had Singapore, Zimbabwe, a lot of teams from Brazil and Europe, a lot of teams from Japan and China. So it just varies widely. But it's really cool to see those international participants out there on the racecourse. And a lot of them come out with, like, their national flags and you really can tell where they're coming from, and it's really fun to be able to have that multicultural experience and talk to them as well.

Panos  28:45  
Yeah, that's one of the great things about these kinds of races. And I can definitely-- when you were saying military people there, I can definitely see this being a very popular event with military teams all over, like Sweden or whatever. They always bring out people for that kind of thing - they bunch up - and it's a format, actually, that I guess works very well for military teams, corporate teams, maybe, as well because you have that kind of bonding of the hierarchy and the organisation of the army or the company or whatever behind it. Right?

Felicia  29:23  
Exactly. Exactly. And that is the amazing component of a relay-type environment. You do develop a very very fast rapport and connection with these people because you're having to work together and you get to know them so much quicker sometimes than you would in a corporate type of environment, and you get to see their fun side and really get to know who they are as people and their challenges and the triumphs that you can do and experience together as a team, but you can only do it together as a team. So it is very much, like you said, a team-building experience that is fantastic for, again, like, reunions, families, military, corporate-type environments, and it's a way of doing it that doesn't feel stuffy. 

Panos  30:09  
Yeah. That said, I went on to the online forum that you have for volunteers and people and runners to sort of find each other and exchange ideas about the event and advice, and I did see that lots of teams enter without being complete and then they'll just do a shout out and they'll say, "Oh, we're missing three runners or three volunteers or whatever." So you also get, on the other end, just random or semi-random groups of people coming together and running this as a group?

Felicia  30:46  
Yes. Yeah, we do. And it's really kind of cool to see as well. In that same van, how many people become really good friends? We've had quite a few people who have gotten married who randomly were put together on teams and developed a connection. And they'll circle back oftentimes. And actually, like, there have been proposals during the race - like people getting down on one knee on the beach. So it's kind of that randomness and fun to be able to see how it does bring people together because people of all different walks of life that you would never, maybe, necessarily put on a team that, yeah, like you said, they're looking for an extra runner, and they maybe don't know enough runners and need one or two extra people. And the way that people connect and develop those friendships is really cool to see.

Panos  31:40  
So I think we kind of conclude that Hood to Coast-- I mean, there is no such thing as a typical Hood to Coast participant. You get all kinds. Do you think that relays and Hood to Coast in particular, would you consider it a beginner-friendly event? Or do you think, like, I guess, on the spectrum of where it sits, it's something that someone might enter after they've done a few solo races? 

Felicia  32:07  
Yeah, I would, I would definitely recommend after someone has-- a runner or a walker has done a few solo events - definitely need to have, if possible, a few 10K-type events under their belt. Optimally, a half marathon. Again, that's not necessary. That could always be a goal, moving forward. But having the ability to run six miles at a time is definitely a huge help. But again, you'd be surprised to see the variation in who is out there challenging themselves along the racecourse when you're out there on race day.

Panos  32:50  
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Panos  34:21  
So let's get into the nitty gritty of things a little bit for all the race directors listening in. It's obviously to the outside world and to everyone looking in - super fun event, Hood to Coast, the whole concept, beach finish, amazing party, and stuff - but there's a tonne of rules. Right? I was going through the rulebook and it sounds pretty strict actually. There are so many things - obviously born from experience. Many of them, I'm sure, learned the hard way that participants are not allowed to do - going back to sleep, for instance. There is a rule about sleeping next to cars. As you said, there are specific designated areas where you can sleep, and it's very strict on that. There's a very strict rule on alcohol which, I guess, is to be expected, but the way you phrase it sounds pretty cut and dry. I mean, obviously, all races have rules - I know because people discuss this in our race directors group on Facebook. Some rules, you saw a little bit of leniency and a little bit of judgement around-- how strict are you in enforcing all of these things is question number one. And how can you possibly manage to look out for all of these rules and violations, potentially, over a 320-kilometre course?

Felicia  35:39  
Yeah, we definitely do take the rules very seriously because it is something that affects the quality of the overall experience of the race and the safety and safety for us, obviously, and for every race director out there - that's the number one priority. So these rules are in place to protect the participants and to protect the volunteers out there. We want everyone to have an amazing, fun, incredible experience, but safety needs to be the priority always. So being visible and adhering to these rules. Like as you mentioned, not sleeping next to your vehicle on the ground. I mean, these are just, like, basic things that sometimes people are not thinking straight after 20 hours, 24 hours of no sleep. So we need to reiterate these rules as being something that we do take seriously. So we have everything from, depending on the severity of the rule infraction, a 30-minute penalty, 60-minute penalty, or disqualification from the event - depending on as I said, how severe the rule infraction is. So those are kind of overseen by our staff that are out there from start to finish along the racecourse and after exchanges. And we also have our volunteers go through a training where we reiterate what those rules are, and we ask them if they see something that is a rule infraction to notify their nearest Hood to Coast staff person or exchange leader who is overseeing that exchange point so that they can then address the issue and determine whether this is something that we need to create a time penalty or disqualification from.

Panos  37:28  
Yeah, and your volunteer team and the way you train them is actually the bit that I found most amazing about the whole race, and we're going to jump into that in a minute. There's so much to discuss there with the video training you guys provide. And just as a, like, a preview for people - we're going to get into this in a sec - you do have to manage 3,600 volunteers, which is mind-boggling. And the way you do it, actually, again, as I said, I think it's quite spectacular. These rules-- have they sort of been set in stone since the beginning, or are the things that you arrived at slowly, like, with passing years and stuff like that?

Felicia  38:11  
In the early years, there were a few rules, of course, like runner rotation and things about making sure you're not running on the roadway or trying to direct traffic, things like that. But some of the rules have been instituted just based on people obviously doing unsafe acts, so we had to create those rules down the road, and newer things like with technology, as far as recommending that participants do not wear headphones. That was something that came along in the last 14 years, 15, 14 years. With the volunteers, as you mentioned, there are 3600 volunteers from start to finish. We have 35 exchange points. And as we mentioned, there are 197 miles along the racecourse. So volunteers are really crucial and integral to our events. They are, I know, for a lot of events as well, but we don't feel that the event would be the success that it is today without the assistance of these volunteers. Sometimes, we've gotten a little bit of heat about, "Well, you should be hiring 3600 people to do this." Well, the event literally could not happen from a financial standpoint if we were doing that. But for the most part, teams really understand that, "Hey, this event is so amazing. We want to participate in this and we are definitely willing to provide three volunteers, and that's what we require." So, if one person within the team is located within a 100-mile radius of Portland, we require that team to provide three volunteers for the race. So the institution of requiring three volunteers came along in the early 1990s, so that wasn't always in place. That wasn't until it was realised that we need people to assist with the physical exchange points and making sure the handoff is happening correctly, or calling out team members, helping to check in teams at the start line along with our staff, of course, or maybe directing vehicles within a parking area. So as I said, the event just would not be possible without their help, and the volunteers that are out there truly are also very, very inspiring. And getting to see the smiles and the joy that-- for a lot of us who volunteer for other organisations, you can see the joy that it brings them to see the fun that the runners and walkers are having out there, and they're having a great time too. So it really brings, again, that community aspect to it of, "We're all in this together. We're sharing the joy and helping to make this experience happen." And the volunteers are just as much as our staff is. The volunteers are as much a part of that experience as we are, who are staff members. So when they are going through training, we really try to emphasise, obviously, the rules, but also how important their job is as a volunteer and what the different capabilities are that they might be doing. So the online portion of volunteer training is something that was instituted-- gosh, I want to say it was in about 2011, I believe. So we've been doing this going on about 12 years for the digital version or online version of volunteer training because we just got to the standpoint where volunteer training was happening in-person over the course of two days for 3600 people. So we would have different stations where the volunteers were going through training, but the variation and how they were being trained, depending on the person who was training them, could vary so widely, depending on what they were saying. We really wanted to have a template of knowing exactly what information and education these volunteers were going to be getting. And for that to be accurate and consistent, we felt that the best way to do that was to transition to a fully online version, where we knew that they were receiving the training. And by doing that, we created - and it took a couple of years of trial and error - a multiple-choice quiz, basically, where volunteers were going through different video modules that we had created. They watch the videos - and these are training videos on the events and what the volunteers might be doing - and then they go through these four videos, and have to answer a multiple-choice quiz and get 75% of those questions correct in order to volunteer and pick the position along the race course and shift time that they would prefer.

Panos  43:36  
And I've watched those videos, which are really kind of five, six-minute videos, I can see that a lot of thought has gone into them because you can see that not a word is wasted. They're not lengthy, but they're straight to the point and very friendly. Like, they are amazingly effective just watching them as a non-volunteer, but I can see why you really don't need much more info than those four or five minute video training modules. And of course, the great thing about the whole thing - going back to the whole policy you guys have - is that, I guess, volunteers turn up on race day, right? Because if they don't, their teams get disqualified.

Felicia  44:21  
Yes, exactly. And we have done that, and teams know that that is a really hard and fast policy for us. So yeah, for teams who want to be able to participate in the event, they do provide those volunteers. And actually, right now, interestingly, we just closed volunteer training last night. So any teams that have not gone through or have not provided volunteers who have not gone through the training, we give them a couple-day grace period this week. However, if they don't get their act together and get those volunteers trained in the next few days, those teams are dropped from the event.

Panos  45:01  
And, again, this is for local teams within 100 miles of Portland, which is how many of the total number of teams that you guys allow?

Felicia  45:11  
About 75% of the overall teams are with one member located within 100-mile radius of Portland.

Panos  45:19  
Okay, when you first mentioned this to me, the whole policy you guys have, which I have to admit-- I mean, I don't know what's happening in every single event in the world, but it's the first time I see something like this where, basically, you draw volunteers from sort of the wider circle of people participating in the event, and you make it absolutely mandatory. So basically, if you don't put up the three volunteers per team, you get disqualified. You describe this to me - and I can see from the way you discuss this - that there must have been some pain around this and some pushback as a controversial thing. I personally don't see actually anything controversial about it. In fact, I think it's a fantastic policy, right? I mean, we often say that, in so many things, whether it's sustainability in races, all kinds of aspects of races, even the economics of it, who benefits out of these things and whose responsibilities should it be for some of these things to be taken care of? And I really can't see anything wrong with the people enjoying the event, which is the participants, putting up the volunteers to do that. I mean, I can also see all kinds of benefits like having friendly faces around and getting people involved because, as you say, 3,600 participants, you're going to be charging people, like, $3,000 to enter to put on this event. Like, how else can you do it? Well, where did the controversy come from? I guess, that is the sort of question behind all that.

Felicia  46:49  
I think it's always-- as many race directors know, it's oftentimes the vocal minority that speaks their minds about that kind of thing. So, you don't hear from the people that have no problem, you hear from the people that are saying, "These need to be all hired staff people." Well, they don't really understand, again, as I said, the expense of that and how the literal event would not be possible, if that were the case. So, yeah, it's something that you are never going to pacify and make everybody happy, but this is the way that event is possible.

Panos  47:31  
Yeah, personal thing here. And as you say, there are always people who have all kinds of opinions. But I would actually love to be able to bring-- like, if I travel to Portland to do this race, have two or three people in my family, and we're talking about 12-person teams, right? Again, it will be friendly faces. I know that whenever they just sit there as spectators, they get taken over by the whole emotion in the race. So why not take part? I think it's a brilliant policy. And your video training, again, what I've seen, is amazing. The fact that you guys can train 3,600 people without anyone showing up before race day, just watching a few videos and taking the test, which is also quite an innovation, I guess, because many people have all kinds of instructional materials and manuals, and what's this before and stuff. The test, I guess, is really important, right? I mean, I'm sure it's not rocket science, but it still puts people in the mindset of at least trying and making sure they know their stuff.

Felicia  48:35  
Yes, exactly. Yeah. And, like you said, sometimes, a lot of the information that we're providing is common sense reminders, but they are helpful for teams and for the volunteers. And a lot of times, there are former runners in the event who can't participate anymore. Maybe their bodies just broken down or they're having knee issues or whatever it is, so they want to participate some other way, so they actually do know that event quite well and they transition and want to become a volunteer instead just to be able to still be a part of what Hood to Coast is and be around that kind of electric environment.

Panos  49:15  
And again, going back to your training, I noticed that you also have a hierarchy within that. So it's not just 3600 volunteers going out doing their thing. So you have the volunteers, then you have kind of more leadership positions which, I guess, are those paid stuff. Are they part of the event, the people, like your exchange leaders and your monitors, and all of that? How do they integrate with the volunteers?

Felicia  49:42  
Yeah, so there are exchange leaders, as you mentioned, whose job is to oversee the volunteers at a specific exchange point. They go through a separate training with us just to go over the specifications of their location and certain dynamics and logistics for their exchange point. Those exchange leaders are actually volunteers as well, but they interface with our staff and we work directly with the exchange leaders. So it's kind of a dual operation with our staff as well as an exchange leader at an exchange point itself. And a lot of the exchange leaders have such an amazing time. They come back year after year. So it really helps because they retain that information, and they come back to us with amazing notes and suggestions for the following year of, "Hey, this is how I really think you should improve this exchange." Sometimes, they'll bring out their own lights, above and beyond what we're already doing, and they really take ownership of it, and it's really, really cool to see people who want to take charge and have that leadership capability, delegating, and dispersing the volunteers where they need to go.

Panos  50:55  
Now, one thing I noticed is that quite a few of those human resources are sort of employed in pointing people around the course - vehicles and runners. Is this just on kind of tricky intersections or do you take a kind of approach of, like, even where we could perhaps put a sign up, we'd rather have a person kind of thing?

Felicia  51:21  
We kind of do a bit of both. So at a specific turn along the race course, oftentimes, we will obviously have very visible signage, but if it is, as you mentioned, a very important turn where runners might go off course and be venturing off for miles in the wrong direction, we employ and have a monitor at that location, directing the vehicles and the runners to take that hard right. And it differs in a lot of ways from, let's say, a 10K where you could just put out a sign in that the event goes overnight and the dark hours really create another challenge because you might put out a sign, but in the dead of nights and it is very, very dark out in those coastal range mountains - there aren't streetlights - having that person out there with their flashing wand in addition to the sign is that extra layer that we feel is necessary.

Panos  52:24  
I've seen recently, by which I mean over the last maybe five, six years, quite a lot of very interesting kinds of event management, event safety type applications hitting the market and being taken up by events like the Paris Marathon and London Marathon and really sort of really large events. Hood to Coast sounds much more complicated than those even. Even if it has fewer people, it's just so many, many things to manage - exchange points and all that. Are you guys using something like that, like a dedicated kind of software for managing that? I just wonder how do you do that.

Felicia  53:04  
Yeah, so we have our communications director. We have a communications director and a communications coordinator who interface with all of the emergency services, and I interface as well, with every emergency management department for each county that we go through - we go through four different counties. And all of our staff members as well as every exchange leader have an event radio because there's about a third of the whole race course without cell phone service. So those event radios provide us with system-wide 200-mile full communication with everyone. So if an emergency were to occur, we are on that and able to communicate with 911, police, fire, whoever is necessitated immediately, and that's really been important for our overall event safety as well. So we've actually put up repeater sites in order to have event radios with, as I said, full 200-mile system-wide communication because, from legs 19 through 32, again, cell phone service is almost non-existent. And you'd think you know in this day and age, where we are today, there's areas that don't have cell phone coverage, and that does create an extra layer of needed communication for, like I said, event radios, but also we have stationary medic services out there on the race course as well, especially in those more remote areas. So yeah, we have a very extensive emergency action plan and our coordination with each of those counties and emergency jurisdictions is important, and we have very close communication with them for the event.

Panos  55:07  
But you don't issue GPS trackers to the team or anything like that?

Felicia  55:11  
Right. So we have looked into that but, again, with the lack of cell phone communication, those GPS trackers-- the ones that we have looked at go from, it'll be like a blue dot, let's say, where they have cell phone communication. And then once you get out of that cell phone communication, it turns to this grey dot and the range of where that participant is, again, an estimation. So we are not able to actually see where they are on a minute or second-by-second basis. So we have not gotten to the capacity yet where we're utilising Starlink or full satellites. We've looked for companies to be able to provide something like that, and we would definitely be interested in it, but have not found the capacity to have fully-accurate GPS tracking for participants based on the fact that the lack of communication in that third of the courses is difficult.

Panos  56:17  
Yeah, but I think that would still be - I mean, as you say, which is probably why you guys are looking at it - such an awesome thing because, now, I guess, you hand over the baton or whatever is the equivalent in a relay, it's a wristband, isn't it? Something like that? 

Felicia  56:29  
Yes, yes, it's a slap band.

Panos  56:32  
A slap band. Okay, great. So you can have that be integrated with a GPS tracker or something, and you can look out for where each team is, which is what a lot of events are doing, potentially even broadcasting it to the world, having a live leaderboard where everyone is would be fun for 1,050 teams.

Felicia  56:51  
Absolutely. Be Amazing. We would love to provide that in the future. And it'd be so fun to be able to provide that link to friends and family and people from all over the world to be able to follow their runner or their walker and see where they are. Yeah, absolutely.

Panos  57:06  
Let's talk a little bit about economics. I am as clueless about relays as the next person, but something tells me that behind the operational complexity, there's probably better margins in it for directors because, for the same amount of distance, you have more people participating, you can up the fee per person kind of thing. And I may be asking a completely wrong person here because your races have been selling out for ages - the dynamics of a sold-out race are quite different - but do you feel there's some truth in that, the fact that relays potentially can be better business propositions for directors?

Felicia  57:48  
Yeah, I think it really depends. If you're able to scale up and create the quantity of teams, you break through that threshold of it being profitable. However, the expense of start to finish and having 35 exchange points where you're deploying staff and equipment, it's a huge expense. It really is. And then, for us with Hood to Coast, we put on not just your kind of minimal bare bones finished party. I mean, this is a huge, huge party on the beach. So it is a major expense. But it depends, I guess, on how large, how festive, and how much you want to embellish the event and make it a real experience for participants. You can do it bare bones and, yeah, you can make it more profitable, probably. But for Hood to Coast and I think for a lot of relays, the expense of being over a distance of so many miles actually increases the cost exponentially. So we're kind of on par with some of the larger marathons in the US as far as the cost on a participant basis. And we do need to always take into consideration as well, inflation on a year-to-year basis and costs increasing from vendors and permit agencies as well. So if you're able to do it at a larger capacity, it is worth your while. But as a small relay, I hesitate in saying, "Yes, do it." But if you have a big following, which we've been fortunate to be able to have, then yes. It's why we're here. We've been here for 41 years because we've been able to make it happen and persevered through COVID when a lot of events went under.

Panos  1:00:01  
Yeah, I don't know whether it is the economics alone or the ability of relays to attract people to racing that wouldn't otherwise take part, which I think is behind the fact that I see lots of races, marathons, and other events adding really events to race. We can actually see it a lot more these days and I'm trying to understand why that may be the case.

Felicia  1:00:30  
Yeah, I'm guessing that is just because of the fact that they want to add in that extra element of the team element, and maybe bring in a different audience than would participate in the individual events. It might be more capable, if it's on a smaller, one-day segment of, "Hey, you're just running three miles twice" versus a 10K or half marathon. I think it definitely brings in, potentially, a different demographic, a different potential kind of runner. So I think it's smart. If you're already creating an event, you already have an event in place, and you have the existing infrastructure and course, why not? Yeah, give it a try and see if it's embraced.

Panos  1:01:16  
So I noticed in 2019, if Wikipedia is accurate, that you guys incorporated the Hood to Coast race series into a B Corporation. What is a B Corporation?

Felicia  1:01:28  
So a B Corporation is any business that has gone through a rigorous panel of questions to show from a financial standpoint, as well as from an HR standpoint, the good, the benefits - the B stands for benefit, obviously,

Panos  1:01:48  
Oh, wow, not so obvious to me. Yeah, I just picked that up on that. Okay, great. Makes sense.

Felicia  1:01:53  
The benefit that we are providing to the local community, what we're doing is kind of above and beyond as a business, from a sustainability standpoint, we do more for our employees and their benefits as well. So it's kind of just going above and beyond the status quo as far as what we are able to do, what we are able to harness as a business to benefit the people around us and really go above and beyond for them. And so B corp, as I said, has to go through a rigorous panel of questions and provide a lot of financial information to show what we're doing and our business practices of aiming to also work with other businesses from a sustainable standpoint or minority-owned businesses and vendors, things of that nature. So it's just an extra added benefit of showing participants and the community that we are a business that cares. We care about our employees. We care about the environment and the people that we work with.

Panos  1:03:05  
And is that written into the charter of the company that, basically, you're going to be doing things a certain way or that there are other kinds of metrics that the corporation is aimed at achieving?

Felicia  1:03:17  
Yes. So it is written into our business bylaws. And then, within a few years, we have not transitioned to do this yet, because we are an S corp. But your transition to become a certified B corporation shows this within your bylaws as well.

Panos  1:03:36  
Okay, interesting. And of course, we forgot to mention - that you sort of very slightly touched on it - all the great work. You guys have been doing fundraising for cancer research. I think I read somewhere it's, like, in the millions - the money that you've raised - right?

Felicia  1:03:52  
Yes. So we have been working in collaboration with the Providence Cancer Institute for-- oh, gosh, going on about 12 years now. And thus far, with the Providence Cancer Research and Patient Advocacy Programmes, we have been able to fundraise over $6 million for the Providence Cancer Centre. So with that, this year, thus far, we're on par to raise - just this year alone - over a million dollars for cancer research. Right now, leading into the event, I think we're at $560,000 and it's just continuing on. So teams are very inspired to fundraise for a cause and it really affects everybody. I feel like every family is somehow affected by cancer. And so people really take that on as an initiative to inspire them to participate in the race and inspire people around them as well. Because enough funding can go towards finding a cure. It's possible. And with the Providence Cancer Institute, their focus is really on immunotherapy and immunotherapy research. So that's been kind of our focus as well with Hood to Coast.

Panos  1:05:10  
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, cancer is, in many ways, totally a kind of spectrum of conditions where more funding would do a lot of good stuff, and it's great that you guys are helping out in that. 

Felicia  1:05:26  
Yeah. Thank you. 

Panos  1:05:27  
I want to look into the future a little bit. It goes hand in hand with your international operations. So talk us a little bit through that. What has Hood to Coast been doing recently, internationally?

Felicia  1:05:44  
Well, in about 2015, we were approached by some different international events that were already happening, that were saying, "We've been hearing about Hood to Coast over and over, and we want your event and we want to bring this event to the masses in the Asian markets." So we explored those capabilities and came to an agreement with them based on seeing and vouching for their portfolio of events that they had already put in place. So Nike actually was the introduction for us on that because they're a major sponsor with Hood to Coast. And we now have Hood to Coast China. We have two events in China. We have Hood to Coast Taiwan. We also have Hood to Coast Israel. And we're exploring another new potential venture in another Asian country which, hopefully, I can tell you about this next spring, but we're in kind of the final works of that. But it's been really fun to see, again, the inspiration that it brings to these international runners when we go abroad, and they take it very seriously as far as their competition level. It's a whole other notch above what Hood to Coast is here in the States, which is obviously the fun, the adventure, the challenge, where, in a lot of these international markets, this is a prestige thing. Like, they are out there to win. And the events sell out as well. So it's been really fun to see just kind of the different dynamic of the different runners that are out there and I hope that the message and the brand of what Hood to Coast is, what it showcases as we said before, the team aspect and the community. I think it's kind of a new concept for those markets that we are now in that long-distance team relay event. So it's kind of almost that early 80s running boom that we had in the States has now happened in some of these Asian markets that we're now in, and they're really embracing it and having fun. 

Panos  1:08:11  
The one common, I guess, Hood to coast fingerprint in all this-- because obviously, there's no Mount Hood in China. But all of these events keep to the mountain to sea type of format, right? I mean, that, I guess, is the Hood to Coast connection in terms of the event.

Felicia  1:08:30  
Right. Yes. Mountains and sea are kind of that iconic part of what Hood to Coast is, so we do try to incorporate that into all of the international events in some way because that's kind of the brand essence of it, and then having that amazing big finish party at the beach or at some location along the water. That's an important element as well.

Panos  1:08:56  
Yeah, I think many of the people listening in will not have international expansion ambitions, necessarily, but I think it's interesting that you see these brands and there's a couple coming out of the US - GranFondo New York was one of them and, obviously, UTMB in Europe does it as well - where you get an event whose brand is clearly associated with a place. Gran Fondo New York is New York, UTMB with Switzerland with Mont Blanc, and they manage to shape international spin-offs of those races. So now you have GFNY Finland. I mean, UTMB has its own World Series where they do, like UTMB China, UTMB UK, or whatever And now you guys are doing this and, still, the appeal is to actually hold on to that brand recognition of the seed race rather than say, "Hood to Coast, what does that mean in China?" and just drop it. Was that part of the thinking behind this?

Felicia  1:10:06  
Yeah, that was actually something that the international groups that came to us wanting to create this experience abroad, they came to us saying, "We want to retain the name of Hood to Coast because it has so much brand cachet. And people understand what the essence of this event is going to be based on branding it Hood to Coast." So I wish we could take the credit for that, but that was those other entities saying, "People understand what they're going to get when the name Hood to Coast is there." So that was why we've continued it on.

Panos  1:10:46  
And is there a master plan in terms of bringing all of this together - maybe like a championship race like Kona or UTMB or some kind of relay World Championship or World Series?

Felicia  1:11:02  
Yeah, we have talked about that. We haven't actually instituted it yet. But if we expand to a few other potential international markets, we have talked about making the original Hood to Coast here in Oregon being the championship event where we would bring the winner of each of those international Hood to Coast events to Hood to Coast here in August. They would compete for the championship final trophy and the honour of being kind of crowned overall Hood to Coast champions globally.

Panos  1:11:36  
That's awesome. I mean, I wish you all the best of luck to bring this to life. I'm starting immediately tomorrow looking for another 11 people to come and join. 

Felicia  1:11:45  
Great! 

Panos  1:11:47  
Maybe 2024. It's a big ask for international teams, I guess, to find 11 or 12 people to compete. 

Felicia  1:11:55  
There are other Greek runners. 

Panos  1:11:57  
That is true. And there's always the forum, I guess. That was the one ray of sunshine for me that even if I don't make it, I can just tag along with some other team and experience it that way, which I may even prefer, to be honest. It's nice meeting people that way. I want to wrap up on something that you mentioned to me when we were chatting on the phone the other day. You've been the race director for this race for a long time. I mean, you know what you're doing by now. But I think you mentioned to me that, initially, you struggled with some aspects of the job, and I just wanted to end on that note for other race directors listening in. You were sort of sharing with me your troubled history with micromanagement. So you want to tell people a little bit about that?

Felicia  1:12:42  
Yeah. So, we all have our learning experiences, for sure, and from my background, as many race directors can probably attest, you go into becoming a race director, I feel like maybe many of us are extremely organised and have our checklists - we've got our methodology to everything - and I felt like the first-- maybe it took me longer than most, but I feel like for the first, probably, five, six years, I was really overseeing and probably micromanaging our staff a bit too much to the point where I almost felt like, or they probably felt like I was trying to do their jobs for them, and it was not mentally healthy for myself or for them as well, and it came to finally the realisation that, "Look, we've trained these employees well. We need to trust in their capability, and let them run with it. And they're going to make it their own. Yes, it's going to be different maybe from how I'm going to do it, but you need to let them have their small failures and, overall, grow and become stronger from this experience. And they will make it sometimes better than you ever thought that you could make it." And having the ability to kind of let your ego go to the side and realise, "Hey, maybe I'm not the best in this one aspect. They should take this on. They are going to be so much better at this certain area and specification than I am" has really been a godsend because we all ZZZhave our specialties. We need to realise we're not going to be the best at everything. We cannot be everywhere. We will drive ourselves to burnout if we try to do that. So just kind of easing up a bit for some of us that maybe are a little more type A or very organised, you put the right people in their jobs and you need to just trust them and let them run with it, and that's been a huge educational piece for me, moving forward, and it's made my life better and I think all of their lives better. So, in the long run, it's been a very positive experience and I really enjoy all of our staff. They're all amazing, great people who really take ownership of their jobs, and I feel very lucky to be able to work with them.

Panos  1:15:27  
As you say, I think what people don't realise when they go through this process is that the end result is really people doing great stuff. As you say, sometimes they do it a little bit differently than you. But, I guess, instinctively, it's so difficult letting go, right? It's like jumping into the void. It's like, "How is this thing gonna happen?" Yet, the relief must be immense at the end because there's no other way, is there? I'm saying, obviously - in your case, where you manage an event of this size, but I think for many race directors - the reason why I wanted you to sort of come out with this is that many race directors struggle so much and people more generally of a certain predisposition, they struggle with this thing a lot, and there really is no other way than to just take that leap, just let people do their stuff - I don't know - close your eyes, go have a coffee, or whatever, and then trust that things are going to be done, and they are done. And they're sometimes as you say, they're done in better ways than you may have done them.

Felicia  1:16:36  
Yep, absolutely. It's so true. And I feel like I'm always learning. That capability never goes away. So I'm always learning things from them as well. And I try to have an open door of, "Come to me even with my job. How can I do my job better? How can I keep learning?" And I feel, like, also from a technological standpoint, there's always going to be things for me to learn. I'm not going to be the most with it. I mean, I'm not really on social media. There's other people that are better at those things than I am, and you have to just trust in their judgement.

Panos  1:17:14  
Where can people find you online? I mean, you said you're not on social media. Can they email you if they're interested in any of the stuff we've discussed today or if they want to reach out for whatever reason?

Felicia  1:17:26  
Yeah, absolutely. So they can find me on-- the one social media that I am on is LinkedIn. So Felicia Hubber on LinkedIn, and then via email, Felicia@HTCrelay.com. And then our website, hoodtocoast.com, and our social media handles-- I do not manage those, for our staff overseeing those. If you want to follow us and see what we're doing with Hood to Coast and some of our other events, we have Instagram @HTCrelay. And then we're on Facebook, which is Hood To Coast.

Panos  1:18:09  
Awesome. So I want to wish you the very best of luck for your upcoming race 2023, which, as you said, is in 23 days from now. So just the final stretch must be really stressful. And thank you very, very much for coming on. I think we all got a very good flavour of what the real racing world is about, and I really appreciate those tips on volunteers. I hope it's as helpful to people as it sounded remarkable to me what you guys are doing with your policy of requiring teams to bring over volunteers and your whole video training module thing. So thank you very much for taking the time to come on.

Felicia  1:18:47  
Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. It was a great conversation. 

Panos  1:18:51  
Absolutely. It was my pleasure, all the best with Hood to Coast 2023. And thanks to everyone listening in, and we'll see you all on our next podcast!

Panos  1:19:05  
I hope you enjoyed today's episode on the Hood to Coast relay with race director Felicia Hubber. You can find more resources on anything and everything related to race directing on our website RaceDirectorsHQ.com. You can also share your thoughts about some of the things discussed in today's episode or anything else in our Facebook group, Race Directors Hub. Many thanks again to our awesome podcast sponsor RunSignup for sponsoring today's episode. And if you enjoyed this episode, please don't forget to subscribe on your favourite player, and do check out our podcast back-catalogue for more great content like this. Until our next episode, take care and keep putting on amazing races.